Join an online community of 135,237 people. Create a profile, make new friends, share pictures and videos with the 216 people online now!

Subscribe | Back to News & Politics

Human Rights - v - National Soveriegnty

Tell people about this topic:
+ Post Reply

Total Posts: 68 Posts

  • Report | Quote Posted: Mon 3rd Nov 2008, 7:23 pm

    liam04uk wrote:

    Spyro i have an example for you 

    I work in a food store and we locked up one night, turned all the lights off as usual. Someone at about 2am broke into the store and tripped up on a stack off goods and broke his leg. The police wouldn't prosecute him because they said by having our lights off (after closing remember) his accident was the fault of the store and we were liable for prosecution and he got let off. So now we have to leave so many lights on in the building over night incase we get broken into... pathetic

    There must be more to that story, because surely no matter how daft the law was for making the store owner liable for prosecution, the criminal still committed a crime which is totally seperate to the possible prosecution for not having a lit store as no matter what happened after, breaking and entering still took place. Perhaps what you are saying is that the store owner dropped the charges?


    Spyro
    Forum Moderator

    28, Male, UK

    2,557 Posts
  • Report | Quote Posted: Mon 3rd Nov 2008, 8:12 pm

    liam04uk wrote:

    Spyro i have an example for you 

    I work in a food store and we locked up one night, turned all the lights off as usual. Someone at about 2am broke into the store and tripped up on a stack off goods and broke his leg. The police wouldn't prosecute him because they said by having our lights off (after closing remember) his accident was the fault of the store and we were liable for prosecution and he got let off. So now we have to leave so many lights on in the building over night incase we get broken into... pathetic

    That is just ridiculous.

    Become the animal

    Embrace the other side


    DarkKnight.

    22, Male, UK, Online!

    5,943 Posts
  • Report | Quote Posted: Mon 3rd Nov 2008, 8:35 pm

    Spyro wrote:

    There must be more to that story, because surely no matter how daft the law was for making the store owner liable for prosecution, the criminal still committed a crime which is totally seperate to the possible prosecution for not having a lit store as no matter what happened after, breaking and entering still took place. Perhaps what you are saying is that the store owner dropped the charges?

    No, that is exactly how it happened. He was not liable for the breakin because he was caused a serious injury which was the store owners fault for not leaving the light on for him. 


    liam04uk

    20, Male, UK

    1,256 Posts
  • Report | Quote Posted: Fri 7th Nov 2008, 2:34 am

    I agree with Vamp on most things he says.

    The perception that criminals have more rights than the victims is born out of the ridiculous rulings in favour the criminal. The British legal system is a joke tbh. There are many examples of this that crop up in the news from time to time. Or even from the examples given in this thread.

    Ive heard numerous stories of criminals injuring themselves in attempted robberies and then suing the resident, and winning. Obviously no self respecting govt laywer would help the criminal but if they hire private laywers then they do sometimes win the case.

    Anyway, our parliament doesnt have sovereignty. The EU can overrule us. 

    Last edited by Bro/b/ama, Fri 7th Nov 2008, 2:39 am.

    Bro/b/ama

    Account removed
  • Report | Quote Posted: Fri 7th Nov 2008, 2:10 pm

    Bro/b/ama wrote:

    I agree with Vamp on most things he says.

    The perception that criminals have more rights than the victims is born out of the ridiculous rulings in favour the criminal. The British legal system is a joke tbh. There are many examples of this that crop up in the news from time to time. Or even from the examples given in this thread.

    Ive heard numerous stories of criminals injuring themselves in attempted robberies and then suing the resident, and winning. Obviously no self respecting govt laywer would help the criminal but if they hire private laywers then they do sometimes win the case.

    Anyway, our parliament doesnt have sovereignty. The EU can overrule us. 

    yeh but thats only because the media only make a big deal out of the few bad cases we've had. people don't realise the everyday good cases that pass through, because they arn't scandalous. people remember the one off bad decisions. and you can't really merit the examples in mingleville threads as 100% true or accurate.

    you mention that u think the 'british' legal system is a joke.. so in your eyes, isn't it a good thing we have EU law to over-rule us?

    and maybe we don't have parliamentary sovereignty at the moment, and EU law over-rules us, but isn't this just for as long as parliament allows it? in the long term, isn't parliament sovereign because we can always withdraw from the EU? There is actually a system where we can refuse to change incompatible law..although it hasn't happened yet and probably won't, theres still that opportunity.


    jokay

    21, Female, UK, Online!

    1,038 Posts
  • Report | Quote Posted: Fri 7th Nov 2008, 2:14 pm
    Oh a brilliant idea, let Europe who are even more liberal than the bunch of muppets currenly running the show overule our own justice system, winning idea there.
    **********Warning the above post may contain irony, lies or outright sarcasm**********

  • Report | Quote Posted: Fri 7th Nov 2008, 2:25 pm

    vampir3uk wrote:

    Oh a brilliant idea, let Europe who are even more corrupt than the bunch of muppets currenly running the show overule our own justice system, winning idea there.

    Fixed.

    1337 []D05te|2

    Originally Posted by internet badass 2.0
    Talked to this brunette in a low cut shirt with the kind of rack that could get Charmin Ultra toilet rolls hard.


    Pauly (>'.')>

    24, Male, UK, Online!

    2,220 Posts
  • Report | Quote Posted: Sat 8th Nov 2008, 4:36 pm

    Jokay, first let me say bravo for giving us a good topic.  And to all who respond ad hominem - google the term and learn why you aren't taken seriously.

    As to the core of the question: this goes to balance.  How does society, through the mechanism of government balance the following issues:

    Tragedy of the commons: the dilemna where the independent actions of many, each acting in their own best interest, result in actions that are detrimental to the group as a whole.

    Tyranny of the Majority: the case where a majority enforces its will on a minority - regardless of the ethics/morality of the issue.

    When does "the needs of the many outweigh the needs of one"?

    How does government "theoretically" regulate behavior for the best benefit of all? These are all questions of balance that can only be examined in the whole.  Sure, there will always be cases of individual situations, that when taken alone, out of context with respect to all other cases appear to be adjudicated improperly, but I suspect that these are rare outliers that are merely an artifact of humans making decisions.

    As for the core issue of Human Rights, the devil is in the details.  What are the specific rights that ones refers to? Humane treatment? One could argue that the prisoners that the US are holding in Guantanamo Bay are being treated humanely, as they get better food, shelter and ability to pray than they did in their own land.  Yet one can equally argue that because they are imprisoned, that they are separated from friends and family, and denied freedom of movement - and hence their human rights are violated.  Let them free and some will actively try to kill you. Imprison them forever and you punish some for no crime. How to choose?

    As for the Government, any government, they are responding to what they perceive as desired by those they listen to.  This is not the general populace, for they never really have a voice.  To listen to the masses, while it seems correct, rapidly leads to tragedy of the commons, the tyranny of the majority and issues such as association fallacy.  Mob rule is not a good solution.

    I think the best thoughts on this come from one of Britian's best: Sir Winston Churchill:

    "It has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried."

    and, "The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter."

    and finally, "However beautiful the strategy, you should occasionally look at the results."

    I know this isn't an answer, but rather a long winded way of saying there isn't a simple one.

    All Mushrooms are edible
    But some
    Only once


    TXISDude

    48, Male, US

    114 Posts
+ Post Reply

Human Rights - v - National Soveriegnty

Discuss Human Rights - v - National Soveriegnty on the Mingleville News & Politics message forum